In this two-part episode of “The Path of Public Service,” Cordelia Clarke Julien, Assistant Deputy Minister at Ontario’s Ministry of Children, Community, and Social Services, shares her inspiring journey through public service, highlighting her history of empowering communities and supporting women of colour in achieving economic independence. Nicknamed “Change-maker,” Cordelia knows change is possible anywhere. She discusses how her career has taken her across seven ministries, a trajectory driven by the need to find spaces where her potential to lead meaningful change was recognized. She explains how her leadership philosophy centers around the three main components of positivity, purpose, and people, emphasizing just how important putting in the effort to understand other perspectives really is. Reflecting on her Jamaican American heritage, Cordelia shares how her upbringing by strong women showed her the importance of life-long learning and resilience. Through personal anecdotes, Cordelia discusses the challenges of racial biases she has faced in her career, sharing stories of overcoming obstacles as a Black woman in predominantly white spaces, leading to a career of perseverance, empowerment, and creating lasting impact in public service. Listeners will be inspired by Cordelia’s overflowing optimism, humour, and practical advice.
In part one, Cordelia discusses her approach to self-worth, support systems and connection. Cordelia also reflects on her Jamaican American heritage and its influence on her values and drive, and how her upbringing by strong women shaped her focus on education and resilience. She shares her journey from working in community-based organizations to her current leadership role, emphasizing her passion for supporting women, especially women of colour, in achieving economic independence. Throughout, she credits her mother and spouse as key influences who provide support and encouragement and shares personal anecdotes that shaped her perception of how to connect with and understand the perspectives of others.
(00:02:28) The Value of Lifelong Learning
(00:03:53) Her Family Legacy of Advocacy, Community and Mobilization
(00:04:54) Reflecting on Her Early Career Trajectory
(00:09:02) A Childhood Lesson: Beginning to Learn About Understanding
(00:15:07) Self-worth and Support Systems
(00:17:17) How to Host Amazing Birthday Parties: Create an Experience
00:00:01 Katie Jensen (Host)
Applaud is proud to showcase the dedication of those who make decisions for the greater good and strive to leave the world a better place for all Canadians. All personal views expressed by guests and our hosts are their own. Applaud will continue to recognize those in public service, offer a kaleidoscope of perspectives, and operate in good faith to build trust with Applaud members and all public citizens.
00:00:31 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Folks say, you know, how do you come in every day? You still smiling? Because sometimes during the days your values being stripped of you, death by 1000 cuts, you have to find someone or something that will fill your cup and remind you of your value and how great you are.
00:00:53 Katie Jensen (Host)
I'm Katie Jensen and this is The Path of Public Service from Applaud, celebrating people who have spent their lives working in Ontario's public sector.
00:01:02 Katie Jensen (Host)
Today we're talking with Cordelia Clarke Julien, assistant Deputy Minister at the Ministry of Children, Community and Social Services.
00:01:11 Cordelia Clarke Julien
My name is Cordelia Clarke Julien and I'm a people person.
00:01:14 Katie Jensen (Host)
And that's putting it lightly. She leads a team of over 2,300 people across 47 offices.
00:01:21 Cordelia Clarke Julien
In my day job, I worked for the Province of Ontario, and in my voluntary job, I support our local community hospital. I currently work for the Ministry of Children, Community and Social Services. I am responsible for social assistance programs throughout Ontario.
00:01:39 Katie Jensen (Host)
Working with municipalities, she leads Ontario Works which looks to provide income support for Ontarians in need.
00:01:45 Cordelia Clarke Julien
In my voluntary life, I am currently the chair of Lake Ridge Health Board of trustees. And Lake Ridge Health is one of the largest community-based health systems in Ontario. Located out in Durham Region where I live. But above all that, I am a proud mom and lucky spouse to an awesome gentleman who is my best friend and my partner in life and beyond. So that's a little bit about me, folks who know me know I love people, and I love being around them in terms of understanding it and really understand that that's what makes the world what it is.
00:02:28 Katie Jensen (Host)
She's been a part-time professor at York University in the Master’s of Public and International Affairs, so naturally I wanted to know whether this love for people is what inspired her to start teaching.
00:02:39 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Well, I'm currently not teaching right now. I took a pause given my demands on other parts of my life, but I am professor at York, at Glendon College, and I did a partnering with my professional partner where we taught in the master's Program for Public Policy. I think that is what got me into teaching. I would say to you, I think we're all teachers every day. I know I love learning. I'm a continuous learner. I credit that to my family upbringing. I come from a very proud Jamaican American family and education was key. My grandmother, may she rest in peace, used to always say, the one thing they can't take from you is your knowledge. So, you need to continue to educate yourself. Learn. She was a ferocious reader. She caught you on any various topics.
00:03:28 Cordelia Clarke Julien
So, I grew up in that space. My mother is the same way. So, I love learning, and so of course teaching I think was going to be inevitable at some point. But I think we're all teachers every day because I look at folks and I hear things, and I participate in conversations, and I see myself as learning every day. So, some of the best learning you can do is outside of the class, is what I tell folks.
00:03:53 Katie Jensen (Host)
I wanted to know more about Cordelia's family.
00:03:55 Cordelia Clarke Julien
So, I was born in the US, and my family background is Jamaican. And so we did not come to Ontario until I was in high school. And so, as you could imagine, that was a bit of a change living in the southern US at the time, I was living in Miami, Florida and then coming to Toronto. That was a big change for me, and I can remember the times of being significantly homesick in terms of just thinking differently, doing things differently, seeing things differently.
00:04:28 Cordelia Clarke Julien
My mother worked in the community in terms of the black community in the US, and my aunt, the saying here many may or may not know, but my aunt was quite well known in the Toronto community of advocacy. Her name is Kay Blair, so that's always been something that was part of my upbringing, right? Always giving back to the community, always advocating mobilizing, that kind of stuff.
00:04:54 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Though interestingly enough, I never aspired to work in public service. I started my long career in community based not-for-profit on the ground right there in Etobicoke, did a lot of work with women, and particularly immigrant women. Started working actually before that in the shelter system, supporting children of women fleeing violence. But then I ended up moving on and supporting women in trying to achieve economic independence, whether it be through obtaining better jobs, not just low-wage jobs, better jobs, as well as doing their own entrepreneurial efforts. So, I would say to you, my career has always been that sort of trajectory of supporting women and particularly women of color, to achieve more in terms of those pieces, so always did that as a thing and found myself being in that advocacy and/or community-based space.
00:05:53 Cordelia Clarke Julien
At one point, I realized though I love community based and not-for-profit. At some point I wanted to purchase a home, so I said let's try the corporate world for a bit, and realized it did not, sort of, fill my bucket. And so, I did a lot of stuff on the side in terms of volunteer work to kind of get that purpose. And then through a previous secretary of cabinet who happened to be doing a lecture in one of my master's programs, she encouraged me to come into government and I thought, "That's odd. Why would I?” And she said come in and give it a couple of months, and I've been here ever since. So formally in the Ontario Public Service since 1999. I really do pride myself that I've been able to work under all different stripes of government and still I'm here today.
00:06:50 Cordelia Clarke Julien
What did I learn from that? In my early years: I am an individual who needs purpose in terms of the work that I do and what I want to see and where I want to go. So, I think from that perspective that gives you a little bit of, just how I got to where I am and so I have said to folks, for me, there's always the positivity, there's the purpose, and then there's the people. So those are my three pieces.
00:07:14 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Everyone asked me who my best friend is, and I have two, my mother and my husband, and those are my two best friends. My mom. What can I say about my mother? She is the strongest woman I know, strongest person, I want to say woman, strongest person I know. I love my mother dearly. My mother has taught me everything I know. People will forever give accolades around, "Oh my god, you're so great, you're this, you're that, you're so wonderful, you're such a loving person,” whatever the accolades may be. And I say I owe it all to my mom. So, what can I say about my wonderful mom? Single mom raised me on her own. I am her only. She decided that, because she said she wanted to pour everything into me. Now as a woman, as a mother myself, I understand better. Some of the things that she had done for me when I was younger, at times where I had no clue what was going on, how the bills were getting paid. Her number one thing to me was education. But even before that, my mom was a woman who came to the States when she was 16. She went to university, did IT.
00:08:34 Cordelia Clarke Julien
And so, you could imagine back then, late 60s, early 70s, not usual to see a black woman in systems. And I tell people all the time. My mom was in the big systems rooms and stuff with the machines. I had one of those Commodore machines, computers coming home when no one knew what computers were pretty much, knew about the World Wide Web as it was starting, so my mom was on the cusp of all of that.
00:09:02 Cordelia Clarke Julien
She basically instilled in me the sentiment I have to this day, don't have others define me, you define yourself. You know what you're capable of. You know what you're able to do and know no one, no one can ever take away your knowledge, nor your dignity or your integrity. Very much about always understanding how you make others feel.
00:09:26 Cordelia Clarke Julien
My father as well, may he rest in peace because he passed, hence the single mom. I remember a lesson. I can tell you it still sticks with me today. I was probably maybe about three or four. So, we're in a restaurant and waiting for food, and outside were individuals who were homeless, and they were there, and they were staring in the window and stuff. And I was like Oh, Daddy oh my god, they keep staring at us. Why are they doing that? Oh, my god.” I remember this because the waitress came and gave us our food and we were having breakfast, so I remember this particularly because it was my favorite, pancakes, I love pancakes. And my dad made me get my food, my plate of food, the fork, the drink. And go outside and give my food to the person who was there. My mom made me sit there and talk to them while they ate.
00:10:30 Katie Jensen (Host)
Wow.
00:10:32 Cordelia Clarke Julien
So, that's the product of ma.
00:10:41 Katie Jensen (Host)
Yeah.
00:10:40 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Yup, yup, yup.
00:10:41 Katie Jensen (Host)
They made you confront what you are uncomfortable with.
00:10:45 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Pretty much. My dad was like, “Not everybody is as lucky as you to be able to come to sit and eat in a restaurant,” and so on and so forth. My mom, for me, was it wasn't enough to sit and give the person the food. That wasn't the lesson. The lesson was “No, now you need to sit, keep them company. Give them dignity as they eat the food, and they have someone to talk to. And then you learn about the individual.” And that's where the notion of what I would say with my mom, the positivity, we're all God's children, you know, while my dad might here give them the food, my mom was like, “Well, no, and sit and talk with them. Right, because they’re people.”
00:11:37 Cordelia Clarke Julien
It's not just good enough to give, but let's understand. Let's seek to understand them, seek to understand what's happening, and what then are you going to do about that. Right. So throughout my life, my mother has always been my teacher in terms of what do we want to do? Where do we want to go? My kids hear me say this all the time and it's because I get it from my mom.
00:12:02 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Life is about choice and consequence, right? You make choices. But understand there are consequences. Consequences don’t have to be negative. There could be good consequences but just understand the choices you're making do you have consequences? And it’s to understand, are you willing to live with those consequences? Right as we go forward? So that's always been something I deal with my own children, and I hear them tell people this. Now my 15-year-old is going into grade 11. I hear him tell his friends all the time. You know, life is about choice and consequences.
00:12:38 Katie Jensen (Host)
Oh my god.
00:12:42 Cordelia Clarke Julien
I see my mom, came to a country all by herself when she was young, went to university, got married, had a child, lost a spouse. Really. Just the bravest woman, didn't listen to the naysayers, just did what she needed to do. Without a doubt. If it wasn't for her... dedication to me, as her child, I wouldn't be here, right? My mom, everything was there. But what came first? Always. And I always felt that as a child. And even as an adult and a mom now myself. And now she's a grandmother. But I can tell you, I always, always, always felt that I came first and anything that she did was to do to make sure that I was OK.
00:13:29 Cordelia Clarke Julien
And so that is what I take into my mothering, now fiercely, fiercely mama bear with my kids. Some people you know, they say helicopter parenting, I said no, I'm submarine. I'm underneath. (Laughing) Like I'm submarine, man, I’m underneath it So, and I got all of that from her. She was always there to guide. Of course. Don't get me wrong. Like people might think. “Ohh. She must not tell you.” “No,” I said. “Oh, no, no, no, no she does. No, she does.” And I think that's why she is my best friend, because we talk and she knows me better than I know myself.
00:14:11 Cordelia Clarke Julien
I come from a long line of very strong black women. My grandmother had nine kids. And six of them are female, three male. Every single one of my mom's siblings, in particularly the females, are strong in their own right and have blazed paths in their own right as well. I think it was almost expected that I would be sort of the way I was, and I say to folks, the strong black woman narrative, I don't know anything else. Because that's the lineage that I've come from and the lineage that says, not that we're indestructible, because we're not, and we have feelings and we hurt and pain, but to really steel yourself internally and make sure that the voice internally is louder than the voices externally that you're hearing.
00:15:07 Cordelia Clarke Julien
It's hard. It's hard to do. So, she keeps me steady and reminded of that. And so does my spouse. Right. And so, when folks say, how do you come in every day still smiling? I do it because I have to get my cup filled by the people around me who remind me of my value. Right. Because sometimes during the days, your values being stripped of you, death by thousand cuts. You have to find someone or something or whatever it is that will fill your cup and remind you of your value and how great you are, and will allow your voice internally to be amplified even more, because you know it to be true. Right. So. That's how I do it. That's what she is to me,
00:16:02 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Fun fact, a lot of people probably don't know. I don't make a career move without talking to my mom. I can look at opportunities, opportunities that are offered to me, places where I may want to go. I'm like, “Oh, it's great, I should do this.” I go to my career advisor and that's my mom. And then, of course, my wonderful spouse who's always supportive. And in fact, when people say, “What's my secret sauce to my success?” I say it's my spouse because he continues to be my number one cheerleader in times where I don't even think I can do it. He's the one who goes, “Of course you can, of course you can. What do you mean? Of course you can. Who’s stopping? You just do it! What are they gonna do? Arrest you? No, just do it!” Yeah, literally, he will say that. I was like, “Oh, I don't know if I can go and talk to all these construction guys.” - “Yeah, why not? Why not? Why can't you do it?” So, when people say who motivates me? Those are the individuals.
00:17:01 Cordelia Clarke Julien
He will actually say, like your mom says, "Babes, there's nothing you can't, there's nothing you can't do.” Right. “If you really want to do it. Just do it. Right, let's be Nike.”
00:17:17 Katie Jensen (Host)
Before we wrapped up, I asked Cordelia, perhaps the most important question of all. I would be very remiss if I didn't ask you about birthday planning, kids’ birthday planning. Tell me your strategies. Tell me your secrets. I don't want any kids. But I love parties, and I have second cousins and they're adorable. And I want to know, what are your secrets?
00:17:36 Cordelia Clarke Julien
I am proud to say I am self-appointed, best birthday planning specialist in my children's elementary school. They're no longer in elementary, but my secret: Every birthday party has to be an experience, more so than just cake and this and that, like you have to want to give them an experience. So, I actually do theme parties, and it is a lot of planning, but I do it and I love every minute of it. Especially seeing their faces. I also think the key to a really, really, really good party is they have to be able to come away with something that they can remember as a token of the party. So, I typically do t-shirts because it's easy and everybody can use a t-shirt because you can always have something to run around or sleep in or whatever the case may be.
00:18:24 Cordelia Clarke Julien
So, what I do is find a really good place, and then I build a theme around it. I did Indy, so there was go-carts, racing flags, all that kind of stuff. And then I made little fake, and it's just like paper, driver's license for all the kids. I've done boot camp where they got them all in army fatigues and actually got my cousin, who is in the reserves to come in with all of his gear and stuff, that one went off, really cool.
00:18:54 Cordelia Clarke Julien
For my son’s 3rd birthday, we did Kung Fu Panda and actually got them lessons in taekwondo and then got them all the uniforms to put on. So, they love that.
And again, key to that is about the people and having them thinking out what their experience will be in there in terms of the kids, it's about the kids.
And then I can tell you that many of the parents do get involved because they're having fun too. And just keeping them active, because the one thing I want at the end of a party is that everybody goes home and as soon as they hit the back seat of that car, they're like, snore, so it's constant moving them, moving them, and moving them.
00:19:40 Cordelia Clarke Julien
And you don't have to spend a whole bunch of money. You just have to have space to make them run. We did one that was football versus “football,” right. So, it was American football and soccer. And yeah, that was a cool one. I love that one. So, it's lots of fun, lots of food and lots of space for them to just keep them moving. That's the key. It's hilarious because my son, my oldest, is now 21. He still has people who will say, "Yeah, your mom gave the best birthday parties.”
00:20:20 Katie Jensen (Host)
You're a legend.
00:20:23 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Ah, the key though is never have them in your house because you have way too much to clean up. I should tell you about when I had the Pan Am Games one, that was good.
00:20:33 Katie Jensen (Host)
Was that the year that the Pan Am’s were here?
00:20:34 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:35 Katie Jensen (Host)
Wow.
00:20:37 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Yeah. And they competed in sports and little activities, and it was, I think my youngest was two, something like that, I can't remember. And they all got their little medals, and we did a medal ceremony. We were able to get referee T-shirts, because my family has to participate. My hubby, he's just as bad as I am. We’ll both get in there, like, "Yeah, we can do this, you can do that,” so it was all in the community center like that's what I'm saying. It doesn't have to be expensive. It was all in the community center, and we've done community center where we got a big screen and did a movie night. Like, you don't have to be fancy as long as they're having fun. They just want to play. And seeing them having fun with each other and just watching them just care for one another - it's beautiful. So, yeah.
00:21:27 Katie Jensen (Host)
That's what I wanted of adult birthday parties.
00:21:29 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Yeah, I know. (Laughing) They've learned too much, man.
00:21:35 Katie Jensen (Host)
It's true, they're like, “Boot camp? No, I just did a Pilates workout. Sorry.”
00:21:40 Cordelia Clarke Julien
(Laughing) Right, right.
00:21:43 Katie Jensen (Host)
This has been Part 1 of our conversation with Cordelia Clark Julian. In Part 2, we hear more about her hard-earned reputation as an agent of change.
00:21:52 Cordelia Clarke Julien
A colleague of mine used to call me the change maker because they always would say to folks, “If you see Cordelia coming into your area, then buckle up because something's changing.”
00:22:05 Katie Jensen (Host)
The way she navigates different points of view.
00:22:07 Cordelia Clarke Julien
Seek to understand, before you're understood.
00:22:12 Katie Jensen (Host)
And what's kept her going.
00:22:14 Cordelia Clarke Julien
I stay for the potential. There is a way in which we can make it better.
00:22:24 Katie Jensen (Host)
Thanks for listening. Applaud is proud to showcase the dedication of those who make decisions for the greater good and strive to leave the world a better place for all Canadians. All personal views expressed by guests and our hosts are their own. Applaud will continue to recognize those in public service, offer a kaleidoscope of perspectives and operate in good faith to build trust with Applaud members and all public citizens. You can share feedback on this episode by visiting applaudpublicservice.ca.