In the first part of our interview with Barbara Gray, General Manager of Transportation Services for the City of Toronto, we explore her dynamic career in the public sector. Barbara reflects on her unexpected journey from the private sector to becoming a leader in urban planning and transportation, where she navigates the complexities of balancing community engagement with the need for efficient project execution.
In this two-part episode of The Path of Public Service, we sit down with Barbara Gray, the General Manager of Transportation Services for the City of Toronto. Barbara shares insights into her career, from her early inspirations to her current role, where she navigates the complexities of Toronto's dynamic transportation landscape.
In the first part, Barbara discusses the evolution of her career, her passion for public service, and the significant projects she's spearheaded. She delves into her commitment to creating inclusive, sustainable urban spaces, highlighting her leadership in implementing innovative transportation policies that prioritize safety and accessibility.
The second part offers a closer look at the day-to-day realities of her role. Barbara reveals what it's like to live amidst the policies she helps create, balancing fast-paced decision-making with thoughtful community engagement. She talks about the challenges of leading a large team, the importance of work-life balance, and the gratification of seeing her work directly impact the lives of Toronto's residents. From managing the intricate relationships with city councillors to tackling the ever-evolving demands of urban transportation, Barbara's insights provide a compelling glimpse into the world of municipal governance and the relentless pursuit of a better city for all.
Listeners will be inspired by Barbara's dedication to public service and her vision for a more connected, equitable Toronto.
Timestamps:
(00:00:30) Barbara's Unexpected Journey into Public Service
(00:01:59) Being a Role Model as the First Woman Leader
(00:02:25) A Defining Moment in Toronto’s Multicultural Appeal
(00:15:41) Role of Executive Sponsor for the Toronto Network of Women
(00:17:22) Benefits of Speed Mentoring and Male Allies
(00:18:55) Lessons from Working in the Public Sector
00:00:01 Katie Jensen (Host)
Applaud is proud to showcase the dedication of those who make decisions for the greater good and strive to leave the world a better place for all Canadians. All personal views expressed by guests and our hosts are their own. Applaud will continue to recognize those in public service, offer a kaleidoscope of perspectives and operate in good faith to build trust with Applaud members and all public citizens.
00:00:30 Barbara Gray
I thought that I wouldn't stay in the public sector for more than a year because my sort of private sector mentality was, “Oh well, who works for the city for more than a year? Why would you do that?” And now I'm, well, I was 19 years at the City of Seattle and I'm cruising into year 8 here at the City of Toronto, so I have found the working in the public sector to just be the best of all worlds really.
00:00:58 Katie Jensen (Host)
I'm Katie Jensen and this is The Path of Public Service from Applaud, celebrating people who have spent their lives working in Ontario's public sector.
00:01:08 Katie Jensen (Host)
Today, we're talking to Barbara Gray, the General Manager of Transportation services in the City of Toronto. In this episode, Barbara shares the importance of balancing public consultations with efficient project timelines.
00:01:22 Barbara Gray
It's really important that we try to bring people along when we make changes in neighborhoods. While I would like to move faster almost always, I do think it is valuable to take a moment and engage people to make sure that they have an opportunity to provide some feedback and shape the solution for their community.
00:01:42 Katie Jensen (Host)
What excites her about her work?
00:01:44 Barbara Gray
The City of Toronto is never boring and working with 25 city councillors and the mayor means that the solutions are never one-size-fits-all.
00:01:55 Katie Jensen (Host)
And her reflections on being the first woman to lead her department.
00:01:59 Barbara Gray
I did realize relatively early on that it is a powerful position in terms of being a role model for other women. I was visiting a colleague at the University of Waterloo and I was walking across the campus and this young woman who was an engineering student came up to me and she fangirled me a little bit, and I thought, “Oh my gosh, like, how did that happen?”
00:02:19 Katie Jensen (Host)
A frequent traveler around Canada, Barbara recounts the trip that sparked her excitement for Toronto.
00:02:25 Barbara Gray
I remember walking around Chinatown and I remember seeing the street signs in both English and Mandarin, and I thought this is so cool because we had been trying to do something similar in our international district out in Seattle and we're having a really difficult time focusing on what language it was going to be. And here every language was celebrated in the neighborhoods, right? So it really left a mark.
00:02:46 Katie Jensen (Host)
And she explains how her experience with urban forestry impacts how she considers ecology in her work.
00:02:53 Barbara Gray
I do think it is really important to not lose sight of the fact that urban areas will be around a lot longer if we pay very close attention to ecology and we put ecology at the top of our list of things we have to pay attention to.
00:03:08 Katie Jensen (Host)
We started by talking about Barbara's experience growing up, and how her early environment has shaped where she lives and works today.
00:03:16 Barbara Gray
I grew up on the East Coast and I grew up in the suburbs. And, just an anecdote from there is that I had to be driven everywhere as a kid, right? Because I lived in the suburbs and I didn't really have access to getting around other than being driven, which was always, in retrospect, challenging for me. Because I chose to live my life in cities after that and raise my family in cities, in large part because it just makes me feel more connected to be able to be out in the community without having to drive everywhere.
00:03:47 Barbara Gray
But then I ended up going to university in Pennsylvania, where I studied English and theatre, and I went to a small school that was mostly populated by engineers.
00:04:01 Barbara Gray
So I always like to joke that I've always been the English major in a group of engineers, and I continue to be. In transportation it is mostly engineers. So I learned how to work with them early on.
My sister owned a restaurant in Philadelphia area, and so I ended up working for her, and really understanding sort of direct customer service, which I think has served me quite well. And I've also been pretty adamant about my sons having direct customer service jobs in their teens and 20s, just to understand the importance of time management and having to please people who may be cranky for whatever reasons. So all of these things maybe don't seem connected, but in my mind sort of in retrospect of what I ended up doing in my career, they all were kind of foundational
00:04:46 Barbara Gray
And then I ended up going back to Graduate School in urban design and planning, and getting a job with an architecture and planning firm in the private sector. I also had my own sort of private consulting firm for a few years working with community groups on how to better connect to governments, in order to improve street design.
00:05:06 Katie Jensen (Host)
How are you commuting as a student? Did you have a car? Were you taking transit? And do you think that influenced your decision to go into urban planning?
00:05:13 Barbara Gray
I didn't have a car until quite late. I had a car when I was in my early 30s and I was living in Seattle and it was just really difficult to get around in Seattle at that time. It was bus only. When I was in grad school there, I ended up living pretty close to a major bus line and walking and cycling. I don't cycle that much now, but I did at the time.
00:05:34 Barbara Gray
I have always loved to walk and I've loved walking in cities, so I've tried to situate myself so that I'm relatively close to where I work. So certainly that did have some influence.
00:05:46 Barbara Gray
It really was so dependent on where you were living as to how you get around, and then it became quite apparent to me that that was a very motivating factor in where I chose to live. And that meant that you have to seek out urban areas that are going to be able to support that kind of a lifestyle. And I live right downtown Toronto right now, I live down on Harbor St. and I am a 22-minute walk to my desk, to City Hall.
00:06:10 Katie Jensen (Host)
I guess that's why you don't need to bike to work!
00:06:11 Barbara Gray
During COVID I biked a bit, and the cycling network and the infrastructure is getting much more connected. I'm not like an overly confident cyclist, so having separated infrastructure makes me feel much more confident. I just have seen the results of too many people over the years getting impacted by cars on bikes, so having separated infrastructure is really important.
00:06:34 Barbara Gray
But when I was living out in Dufferin Grove, just a little west of the main part of downtown, during COVID, we had a number of temporary bike routes that we put in place. I think it was 40 kilometers, it was not an insignificant amount and a couple of them went east west. And so I ended up using a number of them to get over to City Hall, and that was really convenient.
00:06:54 Barbara Gray
And when transit was a problem with COVID, can’t really be on transit comfortably and it was too far to walk, it was about an hour-long walk, cycling was completely consistent. Again 20 minutes door to door, so I understand why people bike all the time.
00:07:11 Katie Jensen (Host)
I really like Toronto's east west transit. North south is a bit trickier, especially with that hill situation we have.
00:07:16 Barbara Gray
That's, you know, one of the challenges with the north south cycling connection and especially on the uphill side and people go slow. So again, another good reason to have it in separated infrastructure.
00:07:27 Barbara Gray
Because the pace you really can't pick up the pace.
00:07:30 Barbara Gray
Although, perspective is everything right? Because in Seattle, the hills are ridiculous. I mean, there's so many hills, and people cycle there all the time. A lot of e-bikes too.
00:07:41 Katie Jensen (Host)
Tell me more about living in Seattle and your time working in the public sector there.
00:07:45 Barbara Gray
I lived in Seattle for 25 years. My kids were born there. I met my husband there. And we lived in a couple of different places while we were there. And I left the private sector relatively early on. Seattle in end of the 90s, 1998, was embarking on a huge program to build the first lightrail line, and the city was organizing a program to bring in urban planners like myself to work with communities to figure out all of the connections and development related to so like we do in Ontario, to build transit oriented communities, it was the same thing there.
00:08:22 Barbara Gray
And so I went to work at the City of Seattle as a Station Area Planner for their lightrail program. And I did that job for handful of years, two or three years, but really liked working at the city. And I thought that I wouldn't stay in the public sector for more than a year because my sort of private sector mentality was, "Oh, well, who works for the city for more than a year, why would you do that?” And now I'm, well, I was 19 years at the City of Seattle and I'm cruising into year 8 here at the City of Toronto. So I have found the working in the public sector to just be the best of all worlds, really.
00:09:00 Katie Jensen (Host)
Did you move to Toronto because you were missing the East Coast?
00:09:02 Barbara Gray
No, I moved to Toronto for the job! So when I was in grad school, I came to visit a good friend of mine at the time, who was from Buffalo, NY. And then my partner at the time and I we drove up to Canada afterwards. Because my dad loved Canada, he had been to Canada a number of times, and we went on family holidays all over sort of from Toronto east. So we used to go to Montreal quite a bit. We went to Ottawa. We went to Nova Scotia. And we came to Toronto. But I visited Toronto on that short trip in Buffalo and I fell in love with the city. I don't know what it was. I wasn't here for more than I don't know, two days. But I loved the streetcars.
00:09:45 Barbara Gray
And I remember walking around in a part of the city. I think it must have been in Chinatown. And remember seeing the street signs in both English and Mandarin, and I thought this is so cool because we had been trying to do something similar in our international district out in Seattle and we're having a really difficult time focusing on what language it was going to be. And here every language was celebrated in the neighborhoods, right? So it really left a mark. When the job came available, I had kind of done a lot of different roles at the City of Seattle.
00:10:14 Barbara Gray
I had worked on the planning side. I had moved into management. Some of my key projects were around getting better connected pedestrian environments in the city.
00:10:24 Barbara Gray
I had worked in the Development review section and overseeing the permitting and oversight and compliance for development review, and created a couple of programs there that we now have in Toronto, and also oversaw the Urban Forestry Group, which for some strange reason was combined with the permitting group out in Seattle. And then I went on to be the deputy director there, which I think was just the greatest job because I think the best role is being a great #2. Being a great #2 is fantastic. If you love the person you work for, getting to do all sorts of projects that enable the organization to work better and to connect with people.
00:11:03 Barbara Gray
I loved that job. It was great job. But I actually love the job I have now even more. The City of Toronto is never boring. And working with 25 city councillors and the mayor means that the solutions are never one-size-fits-all. They're always modified to meet the needs of neighborhoods, which means that you really have to be clever.
00:11:24 Barbara Gray
And you have to hire really good people who understand how to get things done. So I've been fortunate to have a really great team and I have a really great leadership team above me.
00:11:35 Katie Jensen (Host)
You mentioned your background with urban forestry in Seattle, so you're also considering ecology. Would you say that you generally approach a problem people-first or wildlife-first? Are they in harmony? And do you think about the city as an entity in itself?
00:11:48 Barbara Gray
I would say it's a little bit of everything. We've recently been doing some pretty exciting work with an Indigenous elder by the name of Elder Whabagoon, who has really been reminding us about the land and the water and the air and all the creatures that are on it and how the work that we do in transportation has a huge impact and the huge responsibility that we have. So we are trying to take a much more holistic approach to how we engage. And I know that's something that governments across Canada are doing as well.
00:12:20 Barbara Gray
But people have an opportunity to engage with transportation many times a day, and we want them to have a good experience. But they really shape a lot of the outcomes here, so it has to be about people. But the ecology is critical, and I don't think those two things have to be in conflict. Sometimes they are, but they don't have to be.
00:12:39 Katie Jensen (Host)
I think that people, ecology, and development are often in conflict when we're trying to figure out how to use space that's being partitioned from existing development, and it's easier to find that harmony when we're building from the ground up with total green space where we can actually think, “OK, how can we equitably mix all three?”
00:12:57 Barbara Gray
I do think it is really important to not lose sight of the fact that urban areas will be around a lot longer if we pay very close attention to ecology and we put ecology at the top of our list of things we have to pay attention to. And it is a very dynamic environment. Look, I don't know that I've ever worked in a green field. I've always worked in cities. So it's always a question of retrofit and and trying to make the best out of what you've got.
00:13:24 Katie Jensen (Host)
You're the first woman to lead transportation services at the city. Did you feel any self-consciousness or nerves at being the first? Did you tweak your leadership style or purchase the world differently than you had previous roles?
00:13:36 Barbara Gray
I really didn't. I've worked in transportation for quite some time now and it's a pretty male-dominated industry. Athough I learned that, a couple of years ago, McMaster graduated its first engineering class that was more women than men. So I think the industry is changing. There's a ton of smart women in the industry and there's so many emerging leaders just in my own organization who are women. So I'm tremendously impressed with the breadth and the depth.
00:14:03 Barbara Gray
In terms of being the first woman leader at the city and City of Toronto and the Transportation Division, I mean, I tend to lead by trying to bring people together. I haven't really changed my style. I did realize relatively early on that it it is a powerful position in terms of being a role model for other women and, representation, it's important. I don't want to say that I took it for granted initially, but I just didn't really think about it that much. I was visiting a colleague at the University of Waterloo, and I was walking across the campus and this young woman who was an engineering student came up to me. And the professor that I was with introduced me, and she fangirled me a little bit and I thought, “Oh my gosh, like, did that happen?” And it was kind of a bit of a moment where.
00:14:48 Barbara Gray
I thought, “Oh, the representation thing is a real thing, and I've got to pay really close attention to that.” Like it's important to see me up in front.
00:14:56 Barbara Gray
I've always been the only English major in a room of engineers, so I kind of have always been an oddball.
00:15:01 Barbara Gray
And that's why I said the representation piece, it didn't really strike me initially. I mean, I knew that I was the first, but it didn't change the way that I behaved. I tried to be more mindful, and I've actually taken over the executive sponsorship of the city’s Toronto Network of Women. I'm so impressed by the passion and the leadership that women bring to all the roles that they have here at the city and also the connection and the intersectionality that we have with other orders of government and all the really important and powerful organizations throughout the province and at the federal level, and we're all starting to connect. And I think that is just so welcome.
00:15:41 Katie Jensen (Host)
What does being the executive sponsor for the Toronto Network of Women entail?
00:15:45 Barbara Gray
The Toronto Network of Women has about 4000 members at the city.
00:15:50 Barbara Gray
And we have a great advisory committee, which those are the the folks that do most of the day-to-day work of having events. We do a lot for International Women's Day. We put a newsletter out. And as an executive sponsor, I have a group of women leaders in the organization who come together and we sort of chart our course and what we want to have as our agenda. We do a lot of mentorship, and we partner with both public and private sector entities to do speed mentoring. We've done some really amazing sessions where young women from across, not only the city’s networks but also networks of women's groups and private sector organizations as well, as we've done a lot of partnering with the province to learn from each other. Some of them are cohort-based.
00:16:38 Barbara Gray
Some of them are an evening where we may do some food and have some speed mentoring and have some motivational speeches and people, again from representation, being able to see really powerful women leaders in many, many different roles, not just in one role in the city, but giving some visibility to that. And giving people who are coming up in their career the opportunity to ask questions and test theories like, I think that's so valuable.
00:17:04 Katie Jensen (Host)
Speed mentoring sounds super fun.
00:17:06 Barbara Gray
It is super fun. We'll invite you next time.
00:17:09 Katie Jensen (Host)
I can imagine it would be like when you have a burning romantic conundrum and you write into a love columnist and without knowing all the context that columnist gives you very practical advice that causes you to pause and say, “Well, duh, of course!”
00:17:22 Barbara Gray
Yeah, it is a little like that! The other thing about speed mentoring sessions is often we have a lot of male allies who come to those sessions and they also have really valuable stuff to say. And I think it's really important for them in those rooms to see how many women there are when we're all together. It's kind of nice to see. But also the amount of enthusiasm and smarts and relation of women in the organization who really seek out mentorship and to hear from leaders, it's really inspiring. It's been great.
00:17:56 Barbara Gray
I'm also part of the Women's Transportation Seminar, which is a transportation organization that was started by women. It's an international organization. And, just to put in a plug, we're going to be having our International conference in 2025 here in Toronto, so lots of opportunity to engage. But we have a lot of male allies who participate in WTS, and they say sometimes, when we have events, I always hear things like it's really important to speak up at tables where women aren't either being given the space to speak or maybe their ideas are getting co-opted by other people. And I think it is really important for male allies to help support women as they grow and expand and leadership.
00:18:38 Barbara Gray
And I've been really fortunate to have both women mentors and male mentors and allies who have helped me to navigate my career. And so I think it's really important that we provide the forums for people to have that opportunity to meet those mentors and to actually learn from them.
00:18:55 Katie Jensen (Host)
What has your career working in the public sector taught you?
00:18:58 Barbara Gray
Well, it’s certainly taught me patience.
00:19:01 Barbara Gray
There's a real interest in trying to move things quickly. But a lot of the work in transportation and across all the different entities that we work with, we work with transit agencies and we work with the provincial and federal government. Things can take some time to get done. Infrastructure is complicated and building things takes time, and change in neighborhoods. It's really important that we try to bring people along when we make changes in neighborhoods. And it takes a little bit of time to engage the public, but I really think it's quite well worth it to do so. So while I would like to move faster, almost always, I do think it is valuable to take a moment and engage people to make sure that they have an opportunity to provide some feedback and shape the solution for their community. So that's one thing that I’ve learned.
00:19:52 Barbara Gray
I've certainly learned a lot about working with people and the value of bringing people with different, complementary experiences together to solve problems is always valuable. It's always better when people want to follow you as a leader, right? Which implies that you are fair and open and engaged. And it's very possible to deliver great results while being a fair, open and engaged leader. So I think that is something that I've learned along the way in working with people, and I think people appreciate that.
00:20:26 Katie Jensen (Host)
Are there any projects around the city, like Cafe Toronto, that you're looking forward to indulging in this summer?
00:20:32 Barbara Gray
Absolutely! I mean, I'm just a total city nerd. We also have a sailboat out on Toronto Island Marina. So we live downtown. We don't own a car at this time. We're able to get out to our boat. And so we spend a lot of time kind of cruising, seeing the city from the water. And absolutely, Cafe TO looks great! I think that it was a bit of a struggle to get where we're at, but the team has done a tremendous job and I think the setups look fantastic. So I'm really looking forward to spending some time indulging in Toronto's patios this summer. I am such a streetcar nerd, and the King corridor, it's another one that was a huge project, one of my first big projects when I came to town was improving the King St. Corridor, and we continue to have some pressures on King St. As you might know, we had to bring in the traffic agents to help people kind of move through there so that the transit can get through. And we have so much construction in the city that the streetcar routes are impacted by congestion for sure. So really trying to figure out what we can do in transportation, whether it's through smart signals or through actual boots on the ground to help transit get through because people are coming back to transit.
00:21:42 Barbara Gray
Maybe not as quickly as we'd like but certainly they are, and trying to make those trips great experiences every time is a challenge, but one that we're up to!
00:21:53 Katie Jensen (Host)
This has been part one of our conversation with Barbara Gray. In Part 2, we hear more about Barbara's work history and how this background supports her role today.
00:22:03 Barbara Gray
I would characterize myself as a pretty good generalist. And I have not taken a straight path to get to my current position.
00:22:11 Katie Jensen (Host)
The dynamic thinking she applies to her work.
00:22:13 Barbara Gray
On the systems-thinking side, I would argue that the benefits of some of the programs that we deliver in neighborhoods, you kind of have to think about what could those benefits look like even if you didn't deliver them in exactly the same way.
00:22:26 Katie Jensen (Host)
And the importance of work-life balance.
00:22:29 Barbara Gray
It's not a badge of honor if you roll your vacation over every year and never take it. Because, you know, you may get to your retirement, you may never get to take it.
00:22:42 Katie Jensen (Host)
Thanks for listening. Applaud is proud to showcase the dedication of those who make decisions for the greater good and strive to leave the world a better place for all Canadians.
00:22:52 Katie Jensen (Host)
All personal views expressed by guests and our hosts are their own. Applaud will continue to recognize those in public service, offer a kaleidoscope of perspectives and operate in good faith to build trust with applaud members and all public citizens. You can share feedback on this episode by visiting applaudpublicservice.ca.