Part 1 of our special two-part compilation episode highlights women in public service - focusing on mentorship, gender equity, and career goals. At this year’s International Women’s Day event, guests from across the public sector throughout Ontario advocate for gender-inclusive policies with empathy and collaboration, and share how mentors help in developing key skills and hold an important role in supporting equity for underrepresented groups. In doing so, they challenge ageism, advise against overthinking career obstacles, and credit supportive managers for building confidence. These stories underscore the value of mentorship, inclusive workplaces, and the ongoing support needed for women’s advancement in public service.
Part 1 of our special two-part compilation episode highlights women in public service - focusing on mentorship, gender equity, and career goals. At this year’s International Women’s Day event, guests from across the public sector throughout Ontario advocate for gender-inclusive policies with empathy and collaboration, and share how mentors help in developing key skills and hold an important role in supporting equity for underrepresented groups. In doing so, they challenge ageism, advise against overthinking career obstacles, and credit supportive managers for building confidence. These stories underscore the value of mentorship, inclusive workplaces, and the ongoing support needed for women’s advancement in public service.
(00:00:00) Introduction
(00:03:19) Kara Santokie - Gender Equity Manager, City of Toronto
(00:13:35) Stacy Hernandez - Administrative Assistant, Ministry of Education
(00:18:04) Klackciya Krishnakumar - Human Resources Intern, Ministry of Health
(00:22:07) Ying Wang - Executive Assistant, Labour, Immigration, Training and Skills
(00:26:30) Suguna Sangaranpillai - Registry Officer, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada
(00:28:04) Part Two Preview
[00:00:00] Katie Jensen (Host): Applaud is proud to showcase the dedication of those who make decisions for the greater good and strive to leave the world a better place for all Canadians. All personal views expressed by guests and our hosts are their own. Applaud will continue to recognize those in public service, offer a kaleidoscope of perspectives and operate in good faith to build trust with Applaud members and all public citizens.
[00:00:31] Stacy Hernandez: What she said to me that stuck was, she was like, "Stacey, I always see you go above and beyond for everybody else. You will always say something up with a smile on somebody's face. But you do not put yourself first. Don't forget, you have the potential to be so much more."
[00:00:54] Katie Jensen (Host): I'm Katie Jensen, and this is The Path of Public Service from Applaud, celebrating people who have spent their lives working in Ontario's public sector.
[00:01:02] Today we're exploring the inspiring journeys of women in public service - voices shaping policy, driving change, and pushing boundaries. From mentorship...
[00:01:12] Suguna Sangaranpillai: She taught me everything, soft skills, hard skills, the job itself.
[00:01:17] Katie Jensen (Host): To breaking barriers...
[00:01:18] Kara Santokie: In a time where we might have limited resources. We all have limited energy. We don't necessarily go from zero to ten overnight. So, in the existing spaces where we might encounter some gaps and barriers, how can we maybe get to five and then next year we get six and then seven. And change is usually incremental.
[00:01:40] Katie Jensen (Host): To lifting others up...
[00:01:41] Klackciya Krishnakumar: It's so important to make sure that our policies are inclusive and really ensure that we create spaces for people who don't always feel like they can bring their true selves to work in making sure that the next generation of leaders really reflect the world that we live in
[00:01:57] Katie Jensen (Host): and making big changes for those who have yet to come.
[00:02:01] Ying Wang: Being a younger woman in public service, I just love being able to kind of call out some assumptions about age in the workplace.
[00:02:09] Katie Jensen (Host): All of the interviews you'll hear today were recorded at the beautiful Toronto Reference Library as we gathered to celebrate International Women's Day.
[00:02:16] Kara Santokie: I had forgotten it's such a beautiful library and it's a very appropriate space to celebrate what is a very beautiful moment for women every year.
[00:02:28] Katie Jensen (Host): A space filled with rich history and knowledge, and lots to munch on. Have you had like a favorite moment from today, even if it's just like the snacks?
[00:02:38] Kara Santokie: Well, the snacks are really good, but for me actually, it's a recurring favourite moment every year to hear the mayor declare International Women's Day, and it's really special now that we do have a woman mayor.
[00:02:52] Katie Jensen (Host): Almost everyone who was there works in public service. All different levels were represented: municipal, provincial, federal. Did you kill it at networking bingo?
[00:03:01] Klackciya Krishnakumar: Kinda? No, not kill it, but I was, you know what? I totally forgot that we would win stuff. So I was kind of just talking to people and I was like, “Oh, wait!” But it was really fun. I love networking. I love talking to people. I think it's the best way for me to learn. So yeah, I enjoyed that part of the event.
[00:03:19] Katie Jensen (Host): Tucked behind a tall row of velvet curtains. I settled in for a day of conversation. First up was...
[00:03:25] Kara Santokie: Kara Santokie. I work for the city of Toronto and I am Toronto's Gender Equity Manager, adding the wee disclaimer that I'm here today as a private woman, a resident of Toronto, celebrating International Women's Day with all the fabulous people in this room.
[00:03:43] Katie Jensen (Host): So if you can tell me about some of your career highlights, just how you got to working at the city of Toronto.
[00:03:48] Kara Santokie: Well, it's been 20 years in this field actually, of gender equity. I'm probably dating myself in saying that I do have a doctorate in both political science, and women in politics. Studying those issues and thinking about how the personal really is political for women every day. And all aspects of our lives really caused me to want to choose this as my career. I've worked both as an academic, I have worked in a nonprofit sector as well, advocating for more representation in Toronto. Um, my job in nonprofit was to try to get, we call it back then a “woman's office.” In Toronto, and then I became the first Manager for Gender Equity in Toronto. So my friends like to joke. I wrote my own job description.
[00:04:45] Katie Jensen (Host): And do you like your job, considering you wrote your own job description?
[00:04:48] Kara Santokie: It was more of one of those things where, of course I applied for the job, I competed, so let me add that for everybody to know, I competed fair and square for the position. I love my job. As any of your listeners know and all the members of Applaud know, public policy is hard. It's hard, and we have many, many different voices and we have to be very, very careful in how we create public policy, but it's a real privilege for me to be able to tackle these issues. It's a real privilege to work on public policy that affects more than half the population of Toronto. That's a lot of people.
[00:05:31] Katie Jensen (Host): So in your day-to-day life, how do you model equity? Because I'm sure it's just, you don't even think about it at certain times. It's just your way of being is thinking about how to make the world better.
[00:05:43] Kara Santokie: So that's a really good question. Interestingly, and I suspect a lot of people who do work in this space would say, we actually do think about it a lot. So it's never unconscious anymore because we bring our whole conscious selves to it, both in our personal lives, and professionally. Of course in our roles working on gender equity, we think about it all day in our personal lives.
[00:06:09] It leads to some very interesting journeys where I would say sometimes you pick and choose, you know, your battles 'cause you can't fight all the time. And what I've learned actually, with 20 years in this field is, I no longer want it to be a battle. What I prefer to do, and somebody taught me this really good phrase recently, is “I'm tired of opposition.
[00:06:37] I want proposition.” I think to advance gender equity, we need more proposition, and that doesn't mean trivializing the severity of the issues or it doesn't mean trivializing the real challenges that women, girls, and gender diverse people face, but it also means that in both actually my personal and my professional life, I think about ways to at least go a few steps forward, never backwards.
[00:07:09] Katie Jensen (Host): To someone who says that it doesn't matter that women are already equal and that the work is already done, what would you say to that?
[00:07:16] Kara Santokie: Well, I'll give you a little personal anecdote about that. So I recently got engaged over December.
Katie Jensen (Host): Congrats. That's beautiful.
Kara Santokie: Thank you. And on my first date with my now fiancé, almost three years ago.
[00:07:34] So it was March 27th, three years ago, we had our first date. And he asked what I did and I told him what I did. He said, “What? I thought that was already fixed.”
Katie Jensen (Host): Oh my goodness.
Kara Santokie: So exactly the same thing that you said. And this is where I come to proposition and not opposition. Recognizing when there might be an unconscious opinion that has come from our social conditioning.
[00:08:03] We're still in a patriarchal context and there's a lot of social conditioning that's associated with that. So usually my first point of reference, or maybe the first piece of action I try to take, is how do I turn this person into an ally?
Katie Jensen (Host): Or on the first date,
Kara Santokie: Maybe on the first date, if I want a second date, yeah.
[00:08:29] My tactic is usually to chat about it. Now, that's not lecturing about it, that's very different. And, that's again for me, where proposition and not opposition comes in. We have to be really careful in this space, I think, that we address the issues. That we think about the most effective and the most pragmatic way to achieve our ultimate goal without polarizing further.
[00:08:58] Katie Jensen (Host): Mm-hmm.Yeah.
[00:08:59] Kara Santokie: Because that can easily happen and I've found that to be a more effective way forward.
[00:09:06] Katie Jensen (Host): If you were to describe like what kind of emotion really triggers people to make change? I would think on one end of the spectrum of inaction or working backwards is shame, and then in the middle is kind of someone who's not really taking action at all.
[00:09:21] How do you speak to people to get them excited about the work? What kind of emotions work? Is it hope? I'm not sure. It's like what's the opposite of shame? You know?
[00:09:31] Kara Santokie: Shaming people in my experience doesn't work. It can cause people, and then this is my opinion, so let me say, I'm not speaking for everybody, but in my experience, shaming someone, and it doesn't matter what the issue is actually, it’s just to me, it’s not only about gender equity or equality.
[00:09:51] In general, shaming people can often lead them to be feel defensive and that's oppositional. At the end of the day, no matter how legitimate our cause, we need cooperation to achieve the change that we want to see. I start off by thinking about and acknowledging that Canada is a country of 40 million people,
[00:10:26] 42 I think at this point in time, we'll never get everybody. To agree that's a lot. But for me, rather than approaching with shame, I find a more effective way forward to be a, thinking about a human condition, which is actually the same for everyone. It doesn't matter what skin you're in.
[00:10:49] It's actually the same. The human mind is quite, incredibly similar across peoples, across the human race. And the more I try to understand that, the more I find I'm able to speak somebody's language, if that makes sense. And here are some reasons why, you know, issue X or issue Y leads to inequities or leads to gaps or leads to barriers. In your human experience, do you think we can move forward together? Or if we can't achieve everything, can we achieve some of the things?
[00:11:28] Katie Jensen (Host): Is there anything that you really want to talk about today or the work that you're doing or just in general?
[00:11:35] Kara Santokie: The thing I think I'd really love to express, and this reflects both a professional attitude for me but as well in my personal life, as we think about International Women's Day, as we think about why we're here, what we're celebrating, is again coming back to the human condition.
[00:11:55] All women around the world, all people, but today we're celebrating women, we all, at the end of the day, want to be heard, and we deal with very, very, very difficult issues. They can be very traumatic issues. We're quite lucky in Canada to some extent, but we have our own issues too. It can become very easy for us to wear a particular lens.
[00:12:24] You know where we're blinkered and we become over-focused on something, especially in our context, which is a developed country. We have a lot of things we enjoy here that many women around the world don't. 4 billion, that's a lot. And all women just want to be heard. And so sometimes I wish I could go around the world and meet these women, and I have in some capacities in my past jobs, but to go and to hold her hand and to say, “I hear you, my sister, I hear you. I hear you, and I feel you.” And I think most humans want that.
[00:13:11] Katie Jensen (Host): Yeah.
[00:13:13] Kara Santokie: And that's a common ground. Now we can point to no matter how difficult the issue is, and I don't mean to trivialize the difficulties, the challenges, the messiness of politics and the messiness of the domestic sphere as well.
[00:13:28] But we still all want to be heard, and that's what International Womens Day helps us to remember every year.
[00:13:35] Katie Jensen (Host): Kara's story, like so many of the women I spoke to, is one of persistence, determination, and defining your own role. It's a journey that Stacy Hernandez is very familiar with.
[00:13:47] Stacy Hernandez: My name is Stacy Hernandez. I work for the Ministry of Education in the Indigenous Education and Wellbeing Division. I am a divisional coordinator.
Katie Jensen (Host): Okay, and how long have you been working in public service for?
Stacy Hernandez: I would say about over 20 years.
Katie Jensen (Host): Holy moly. Always in education?
Stacy Hernandez: I started off as a records clerk basically with the Ministry of Long-Term Care.
[00:14:10] I worked there through an agency. So when you come to an agency with the government, it's hard for you to actually get a position there really. So I did a lot of networking and just put myself out there, like learning more on the job and getting to know people, reaching out to other staff or coworker that I would work with. And my contract was finishing up,
[00:14:36] so I was still with one of the top agency with the government, it's called Altis. Just before my birthday 2005, I got a call from my agent, said, “Hey, there's a position opened up in Ministry of Education in the Indigenous Education office.” And I worked there for a while, and one of the managers, he goes like, “You know what?
[00:14:58] I think you should get off the agent because you need to really get a position in this ministry. Your experience is really way above, and the way you work you're so organized. You know what? Let me do some networking and see.” Because my background is Indigenous, but I'm from Guyana, so Indigenous in my country, it's not so recognized.
[00:15:23] I was like, you know what? I think this is where I wanna be. 'Cause I wanted to help people and the work they do in the Indigenous office, like they help all the Indigenous school, the community, they advocate for fundings for them and all. I'm like, you know what? This is what I wanna do. And that's how I
[00:15:41] continued to work for the Ministry of Education and I just worked my way up.
Katie Jensen (Host): Was there ever anything that a manager or a mentor said to you that has really stuck with you?
Stacy Hernandez: Yeah. I had this manager, she was a great manager and the way she care about people, I love her. What she said to me that stuck, she goes like, .
[00:16:02] “Stacy, I always see you go above and beyond for everybody else.” She goes like, "You are capable of doing so much more. You have the potential to be so much more. The way you shine and sparkle and make everybody,” she goes like, "It's not a day like where if we are in a meeting, you always say something that put a smile on somebody's face or make someone feels good about themselves.”
[00:16:24] She goes like, "Yeah. Don't forget, you are capable of so much more and you can do the impossible if you put your mind to do it.” And she goes like, "Do not, demean yourself by saying you cannot do that. You can.And you,” and she goes, “I see so much in you that you can go far.
Katie Jensen (Host): How did you receive that information?
[00:16:48] Stacy Hernandez: It was hard for me because I haven't seen myself, like, I haven't like really looked at myself and said, “Yeah, you're a positive person,” but I always felt like, "Oh, I don't think people see that in me. Like really.” But it takes me a while to realize that, “Yes.”
[00:17:04] Katie Jensen (Host): Yeah. So what have you done since then to try and like give yourself the props that you know that you should?
[00:17:10] Stacy Hernandez: I just continue to be positive about myself, uplift myself more, give myself more self-care and self-love. And if I do something I'll say, “Yeah, you got this girl, you can go for it.” Like just being overall like more self-aware, I would say. And also more confident about myself.
[00:17:30] Katie Jensen (Host): Totally. Is there anything else that you wanna mention on the podcast before we wrap up?
[00:17:36] Stacy Hernandez: Well, I just wanna just uplift all the women out there for International Women's Day who are working so hard. Even though you're struggling, even though you're having a bad day. Just keep shining, keep sparkling, and just know that you're worthy and just know that there's somebody out there loves you, cares about you, and you know, just overall, just keep smiling, keep going, keep being the authentic person they are, and just uplift every woman out there for International [Women’s] Day.
[00:18:04] Katie Jensen (Host): One of the coolest parts of the event was how diverse the age ranges were. There were women who were still in school, new grads, those who are mid-career, and some who were retired.
[00:18:14] Klackciya Krishnakumar: My name is, hi, my name is Klackciya Krishnakumar. I am working at the Ontario Public Service currently. I have joined through the Ontario Internship Program.
[00:18:24] I'm co-leading the Diversity Career Champion program, which is an initiative that the OPS takes part in every year. We're giving opportunities to individuals who are joining to have mentorship experiences with talented leaders who have been at the OPS and can share a lot of knowledge and experience.
[00:18:43] It's just a great program and I'm so happy to be leading it and to be sharing how great it is with you today as well.
[00:18:49] Katie Jensen (Host): What kind of mentors are part of the program?
[00:18:51] Klackciya Krishnakumar: So the leaders that we have at the ministry I work at, which is Health, we have senior leaders who are Assistant Deputy Ministers, the Deputy Minister as well as Associate Deputy Ministers.
[00:19:04] We have also opened it up to senior managers, and that was an initiative we made to ensure that the people who provide those mentorship skills and wisdom are individuals that have been there for a long time and can really help people who want to advance their careers or who want to become leaders themselves.
[00:19:24] We partner them up based off of what the mentors and mentees both want to provide each other in terms of support.
Katie Jensen (Host): So what are some of the mentors looking for?
Klackciya Krishnakumar: I think a lot of the mentors, because they've been there for so long and they themselves have been a part of one of those underrepresented groups, really want to share the insights that they have in terms of the barriers they faced.
[00:19:47] Whether it be cultural barriers or language barriers, systemic racism, all of these areas that, uh, a lot of us come across. So I am a first-generation Canadian. I think, um, I can speak for a lot of first-generation Canadians, especially women, that the household that we grew up in, there's so many expectations for women and sometimes they can be limiting.
[00:20:11] And I learned very early on as someone who comes from a business background that. Being a woman is not the easiest in a male-dominated area, especially when I was considering going into finance at the time, and of course finance, I'm sure you've heard of the term “finance bro.” So I think it really helped me when I had a lot of mentors, and I think that has helped me a lot in advancing my own career.
[00:20:37] And I think the importance of networking, making sure that you hear other people's stories, it really kind of makes you think about your own lived experience and how you can support one another and recognize the struggles that other people have. I think we always go into work and we try to bring our true selves to work, but it's not always the case when you don't feel like you can and you don't think you have the support for. And I'm speaking from my experience, kind of being in a lot of co-op positions and internship programs.
[00:21:10] Like you go in not knowing a lot of people, you're new, you're a new face. And you really have to take the time to understand the culture, how you can integrate into it, but also not lose yourself. And I think that's why mentorship is so important, especially for women, racialized individuals, and just individuals who are usually underrepresented in a lot of workplaces.
[00:21:33] Katie Jensen (Host): What do folks who are later in their careers, of older generations, need to know about making sure Gen Zs have everything they need to be the best they can be at work. What would make you and other Gen Zs thrive?
[00:21:46] Klackciya Krishnakumar: I think that's a beautiful question. I can't speak for all Gen Zs, but I do think that we are very brave.
[00:21:55] We ask questions, the hard ones. And I think if you create a space for us to be able to ask those questions, you encourage it. I think we can make a lot of good change.
[00:22:07] Katie Jensen (Host): I spoke to another young changemaker who's not afraid to mix it up.
[00:22:10] Ying Wang: My name is Ying Wang. I work for the Ontario Public Service in the Ministry of Labour, and I'm currently an Executive Assistant to an Assistant Deputy Minister.
[00:22:20] Katie Jensen (Host): Okay. And what does being an EA involve?
[00:22:23] Ying Wang: It's kind of like operating a flight deck. You see all the movement, from requests coming in and out of your division. You support your leader in terms of making strategic decisions and how they want to run their business. And it's truly a managerial role, which I think is not something many people acknowledge when they hear the word “assistant.”
[00:22:43] It brings up a lot of old school connotations about administration and paperwork, which still exists, but there's a lot more to the role that I love to highlight.
Katie Jensen (Host): Oh, tell me more then.
Ying Wang: Yeah. Well one of the biggest things that I found in my experience was adjusting the capacity of my office to match where we were in today's age.
[00:23:03] So people often think, you know, you're just doing filing, for example, why do you need three staff in your office? Well, did you know that we also do issues coordination, we handle inquiries from other divisions in the organization, sit on committees, you know, think about ways to promote our business. So in that sense, it's been really nice to come in and bring that fresh perspective to advocate for more resources in the office.
[00:23:29] Katie Jensen (Host): It's almost like being a triage nurse.
[00:23:31] Ying Wang: Yes.Yeah, that's a perfect example.
[00:23:33] Katie Jensen (Host): Where it's like, yeah, you might not be getting your fingers in bodies, but you're the one who's deciding what is so urgent that it needs to be attended to immediately.
[00:23:41] Ying Wang: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:42] Katie Jensen (Host): Yeah. So what did you do before this?
[00:23:44] Ying Wang: Before this, I was an advisor to a Deputy Minister, so kind of in that executive office pipeline.
[00:23:51] And I do find for many deputy minister advisors, especially the women, it's kind of a natural graduation path to become an EA and. Maybe something to challenge in terms of gender stereotypes,
[00:24:07] Katie Jensen (Host): If that's part of the pipeline. What happens after one becomes an EA and is ready for the next thing? What is the next thing?
[00:24:12] Ying Wang: I guess the next thing is normally a manager role.Yeah.
[00:24:15] Katie Jensen (Host): Yeah. What excites you about being a woman in public service?
[00:24:21] Ying Wang: So I think my spin on that as well as being a younger woman in public service. I've been here for about 10 years now and I've seen more of a culture shift in terms of how we treat age and ageism.
[00:24:34] It does go both ways too, with older workers and younger workers, but I just love being able to kind of call out some assumptions about age in the workplace. I remember when I started, people would make comments like, you're so cute, you could be my child, or, you know, just things that are really off the walls in today's climate.
[00:24:57] But just being able to say in my role now, having that voice, you know, we have students coming, make sure you're mindful of what you say to them. Make sure you treat them as equals in the workplace. And I think that goes a long way to make sure tomorrow's generation of public servants feel welcome in the workplace.
[00:25:15] Katie Jensen (Host): Is there anything else that you wanna mention? Like literally the floor is yours.
[00:25:19] Ying Wang: Maybe just don't overthink certain things. I am an overthinker, and one of the panelists at the event today kind of said, you know, you always have tomorrow to fix things. And nine out of ten times, that's turned out to be true.
[00:25:33] Katie Jensen (Host): Yeah, there's nothing too irreparable. It's all kind of like fixable. There's a solution to everything.
Ying Wang: Definitely. Yeah.
Katie Jensen (Host): Any advice you would give your younger self 10 years ago getting into public service?
[00:25:46] Ying Wang: I think. Sometimes it's to pull back and look at. The organization around you. I've been in some roles where I felt really stuck that I wasn't getting any meaningful work, and I would just blame myself.
[00:25:59] Like, "Oh, it must be because I'm not an important member of the team, or I'm seen as less capable.” And it was like, no, the area you're working in is being shut down or this is just not a priority project right now. And a lot of times when you pull back like that, it really takes away some of the heaviness that you're feeling personally.
[00:26:21] Katie Jensen (Host): Yeah. It has nothing to do, do with you. Yeah. It's like a systemic funding thing.
Ying Wang: Mmhmm. Yeah.
Katie Jensen (Host): As any new grad knows, it can take a while to get your foot in the door.
[00:26:30] Suguna Sangaranpillai: My name is Suguna Sangaranpillai. I work for the Immigration Refugee Board of Canada. I was working as a customer service representative in retail. I was actually a fresh graduate back in 2017 from University of Toronto.
[00:26:43] I studied religion, history, and Canadian studies. I was unable to find a job right away in my dream job. This where I wanted to be. I work as a Case Management Officer. I joined the organization back in August, 2021. So far it's been a great experience. When I first joined, I was paired up with a mentor, and she always told me that I always try to stand out.
[00:27:05] She taught me everything, soft skills, hard skills, the job itself. She made a very big impact in my life and I'm still in touch with her. There are a lot of things that we still discuss.
[00:27:14] Katie Jensen (Host): What were some of the things that she taught you or that you absorbed by being in her presence?
[00:27:19] Suguna Sangaranpillai: She always told me, “Always try to stand out. If you have a question, always ask me. I can always show you the way.” She made a very big impact in my life when I joined the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada.
[00:27:29] Katie Jensen (Host): Is there any kind of message you wanna share for International Women's Day about what it's like to be a woman working in public service or what you hope for women around the world?
[00:27:38] Suguna Sangaranpillai: It is great to work in a public service as a woman, especially if you get the chance to go up to a higher position. Like myself, I have a lot of goals and ambitions, aspirations within my organization. I want to grow up to become a decision maker. So if you have a goal and you have aspirations, go for it. Always change your plan, but never change your goals. You know, women are like goddess, we are capable of everything.
[00:28:04] Katie Jensen (Host): This has been part one of our two-part episode on International Women's Day. In part two, we'll hear more about career challenges.
[00:28:11] Susan Buchanan: When I took over as management, I was also a new mom, and so I was a new mom in a new career and just insecurity left, right, and center, and I was having to learn both at the same time.
Katie Jensen (Host): Imposter syndrome.
[00:28:26] Dr. Gillian Mandich: Confidence. You're not just born with it, right? You actually have to work it like a muscle. But that can be really scary, especially as a woman sometimes, especially in a male-dominated space
Katie Jensen (Host): And giving back to community.
[00:28:37] Veronica Settle: And I had watched them from when they were grade nine, like little babies, and all the way up to grade 12, and there was no teachers or staff that wanted to coach them. And I said, okay, then I'll coach.
[00:28:56] Katie Jensen (Host): Thanks for listening. Applaud is proud to showcase the dedication of those who make decisions for the greater good and strive to leave the world a better place for all Canadians. All personal views expressed by guests and our hosts are their own Applaud, will continue to recognize those in public service, offer a kaleidoscope of perspectives, and operate in good faith to build trust with Applaud members and all public citizens. You can share feedback on this episode by visiting Applaud public service.ca