Part 2 of this episode continues the conversation about what it means to build a fulfilling career in public service as a woman. It explores how having a meaningful life outside of work, like coaching or volunteering, can strengthen leadership skills, build confidence, and bring a greater sense of purpose to the workplace. There's also a look at the importance of advocating for flexibility, and how making space for passions beyond the job can actually enhance performance and well-being. The discussion also dives into what contributes to happiness at work: confidence, autonomy, and a strong sense of purpose. Community and mentorship emerge as key themes, along with the idea that influence isn’t limited to those in senior roles, everyone, including junior employees, can help shape a healthier workplace. Drawing from both research and lived experience, the episode highlights how joy, connection, and purpose can help public servants not only succeed, but thrive.
Part 2 of this episode continues the conversation about what it means to build a fulfilling career in public service as a woman. It explores how having a meaningful life outside of work, like coaching or volunteering, can strengthen leadership skills, build confidence, and bring a greater sense of purpose to the workplace. There's also a look at the importance of advocating for flexibility, and how making space for passions beyond the job can actually enhance performance and well-being.
The discussion also dives into what contributes to happiness at work: confidence, autonomy, and a strong sense of purpose. Community and mentorship emerge as key themes, along with the idea that influence isn’t limited to those in senior roles, everyone, including junior employees, can help shape a healthier workplace. Drawing from both research and lived experience, the episode highlights how joy, connection, and purpose can help public servants not only succeed, but thrive.
[00:01:28] Sophia Tracey - Programs and Service Delivery Intern - Ministry of Economic Development, Job Creation, and Trade
[00:02:52] Alicia Bremner - Ministry of Finance Account Management Collections Branch
[00:04:16] Susan Buchanan - Senior Policy Advisor - Policy, Archives and Data Division
[00:14:10]Veronica Settle - Support Assistant, City of Toronto
[00:22:06] Dr. Gillian Mandich - Happiness Researcher
[00:22:25] Cynthia Watt - ERC/AMERC, Executive, Board, AMAPCEO
[00:00:00] Katie Jensen (Host): I am Katie Jensen, and this is the Path of Public Service from Applaud, celebrating people who have spent their lives working in Ontario's public sector. This is part two of our dispatches from the International Women's Day event held at the Toronto Reference Library where all different levels of public service were represented; Municipal, Provincial and Federal.
[00:00:21] Dr. Gillian Mandich: I love the event today because there are women of all ages here, a very, very diverse group of women, and so a lot of storytelling and sharing has been happening.
[00:00:30] Katie Jensen (Host): In part one, we heard from a group of women unabashedly paving their own path. In part two, we'll hear more about career challenges.
[00:00:39] Susan Buchanan: When I took over as management, I was also a new mom, and so I was a new mom in a new career and just insecurity, left, right, and center, and I was having to learn both at the same time.
[00:00:53] Katie Jensen (Host): Imposter syndrome...
[00:00:55] Dr. Gillian Mandich: confidence. You're not just born with it, right? You actually have to work it like a muscle. But that can be really scary, especially as a woman sometimes, especially in a male dominated space.
[00:01:03] Katie Jensen (Host): Giving back to community...
[00:01:05] Veronica Settle: And I had watched them from when they were grade nine, little babies and all the way up to grade 12 and there was no teachers or staff that wanted to coach them. And I said, okay, then I'll coach.
[00:01:17] Katie Jensen (Host): There's a quote that's often attributed to the legendary tennis star, Billie Jean King. If you see it, you can be it. And it came to mind after I spoke to someone at the very beginning of her career journey.
[00:01:28] Sophia Tracey: So, hi, my name's Sophia Tracy. I'm with the Ministry of Economic Development, job creation and Trade, and I support small to medium businesses as part of the Business Advisory Services branch. I. Graduated in 22 with a BA in political science.
[00:01:43] And then from there I worked in nonprofit sector, so I did youth programming, I did youth employment for a bit, and then that's how I transitioned, and I actually applied to the internship program, to now be with the Ontario Public Service. Honestly, it's been phenomenal to see how many women are in like managerial roles, director roles, ADMs.
[00:02:00] And it's phenomenal to see like the career growth and opportunities. And then especially today though, I will say that it's really brought it home that there's so much opportunity and like excellence right in our midst. So, like, uh, I guess it's just a necessary reminder to network and leverage those connections.
[00:02:16] Because really and truly. Everyone started out at some point, right? So, using today to see what we can do together to make tomorrow a better place. Just a shout out to the phenomenal woman that I've got to meet today. And then also kudos to anyone considering to enter public services. Anyone's listening to this for the first time and saying, you know what? My experience or education doesn't perfectly align. There really is a place for everyone. There is not any constraints and there's no doubts about like, okay, I'll shine less brightly. If there's someone similar to me, the more of us, the merrier, truly.
[00:02:46] Katie Jensen (Host): Sophia's comments echoed those of Alicia Bremner, who I spoke with earlier in the day.
[00:02:52] Alicia Bremner: My name's Alicia Bremner, and I work for the Ministry of Finance Account Management Collections branch.
[00:02:57] Katie Jensen (Host): Tell me why you love being a woman in public service?
[00:03:00] Alicia Bremner: We have the challenges, but we're also able to overcome those challenges by working with other women. Like my regional manager is a female. My senior manager is a female, so it's really nice to be able to see other women doing the job.
[00:03:16] Right. Our regional manager, I believe she was a collections officer, prior. So, it's nice to see that collection officers can move up. So yeah, just seeing women in these jobs is really nice to see. And it's not just the male dominated area. One of the ladies that is sitting at the table with me, she's from the city of Toronto. But she's working at the Ministry of Attorney General. Oh wow. Yeah. So, she's like in both sides of the government and it's kind of cool. I didn't know that there was even something like that.
[00:03:48] Katie Jensen (Host): It's also nice 'cause then you can find someone who maybe does your role within a different level. Yeah. And be like, oh, I would rather do this on like a grander scale and maybe move up or scale down.
[00:04:00] Alicia Bremner: Exactly.
[00:04:02] Katie Jensen (Host): Sometimes navigating the career ladder can be a bit dodgy and you need a helping hand to stabilize and cheer you on, and that's where mentorship comes in. Susan Buchanan is a member of Women in Government, an OPS Employee Network, focused on education and mentorship.
[00:04:16] Susan Buchanan: So Susan Buchanan. I am with the Ministry of Public Business and Service Delivery and Procurement as part of the Ontario government, and I have worked with the Ontario government going into my 31st year
[00:04:29] Katie Jensen (Host): Working anywhere 31 years, I'm sure you've got a lot of war stories, but I'm sure you also have a lot of things that make you feel like filled with emotion when you think back on them. I'm wondering if you can tell me of some specific stories that kind of make you feel good, make you still wanna come to work every day. You know what I mean?
[00:04:48] Susan Buchanan: So, I have had a great career. One of the things that I hope for a lot of others that work in the Ontario public sector is that they have the same opportunities that I did. And yes, I've had my ups and downs, I've had a lot of learning opportunities. Difficult situations, but I started, I had come out of a post diploma course in, after being in university, thought I wanted to go into law school, never wanted to work in the government, and I had an opportunity for a co-op placement out of a regulatory law program, and I was enthralled by the mentor I had at the time and then got an opportunity to come in as a temp, and then I started as a program assistant.
[00:05:36] Then I went into a team lead. I was in management for 10 years and I had opportunities to move in and out of the position. I deal with access and privacy legislation and then I ended up in the enterprise area, so that's where I'm now, the corporate office that overlooks all ministries and municipalities for the legislation.
[00:06:02] Susan Buchanan: On ups and downs? Absolutely. When I took over as management, I was also a new mom and so I was a new mom in a new career and just insecurity left, right, and center, and I was having to learn both at the same time.
[00:06:17] Katie Jensen (Host): Mm-hmm.
[00:06:19] Susan Buchanan: As I look back, I love that I've had those opportunities because one of the things is I grew as a person because of that.
[00:06:27] Katie Jensen (Host): Did you keep in touch with that initial mentor?
[00:06:29] Susan Buchanan: I did. I actually just had a conversation with him on Friday. He has since retired from the Ontario government, but it is a mentorship that I've kept on that even as he moved out of the area. And then retired, I'm very grateful that I had that opportunity, but throughout my career, I have found mentors, and mentors don't have to be senior people. Mentors can be anybody that you cross paths with, because even in difficult situations, that person is your mentor because you learn a lot about yourself when there is conflict, because of the fact that you have to look at: what have I learned about myself?
[00:07:11] Katie Jensen (Host): Something we've never talked about on the show before is speaking directly to those who are early career. They might not know what to expect from a mentor. They might hear the word mentor and think, oh, this is someone who I eventually have to ask for a job, or, you know, to extract something from. So, I'm wondering. How you would counsel someone looking for a mentor and what to seek out, what kind of relationship to build, what to expect.
[00:07:37] Susan Buchanan: So, for mentorships, especially for a new employee or even anywhere in their career, is it's somebody that, it's the safe place for you. It's learning things about yourself. I know often I talk a lot of women about imposter syndrome, so imposter syndrome where you're feeling very unsecure about your own capability is when you have a mentor or a safe place. It allows for you to discuss what you're feeling and also look at your successes. Often women, they undervalue their own capabilities, so talking to somebody else that can actually ensure that you know your own worth is really, really great.
[00:08:22] Katie Jensen (Host): What would you say to someone who's listening who's like, I hear you, I know I should think better of my ability and my skill, but I just don't feel it. Like, I just don't feel it yet. What would you say to do right away?
[00:08:35] Susan Buchanan: What I would say to do right away is every day: write a list of, of the things that you do and the things that you're passionate about. Take stock of your skills, take stock of things that you do well, so that when you're in a situation that you know, you don't even mean to, but you run into someone, you're ready to then have a conversation with someone to say, this is what I can bring to the table.
[00:08:58] Katie Jensen (Host): And also, they say that the brain can't tell the difference between things that we say about ourselves and true things about ourselves. So really, just repeating to yourself only good things, so your brain believes them.
[00:09:10] Susan Buchanan: Absolutely. Absolutely. That when you actually spend the time to look at your own successes and you've documented it so that it becomes ingrained, it does make it easier.
[00:09:24] Katie Jensen (Host): So what creates success working in public service
[00:09:27] Susan Buchanan: So often understanding your own career values. 'cause everybody has different career values. For me, my career value is actually anything that will connect to people. So. If you have an awareness of what actually drives you, that creates success because you will constantly look for opportunities or work or connections that align to what makes you tick.
[00:09:54] Katie Jensen (Host): But what if you're so early in your career, you don't know what your career values are? What if it's your first job?
[00:09:58] Susan Buchanan: So if, if it's your first job, just start having an awareness of things that you like. And again, back to making a list of what did I enjoy about my day today? What didn't I enjoy about my day today? Because when you start your job, there's always gonna be things that you don't like, and I'm not saying don't do them.
[00:10:17] Katie Jensen (Host): Yeah. And to contextualize, not everything about work is fun, and it's about figuring out what is so fun that it helps buoy you through the stuff that's not fun.
[00:10:31] Susan Buchanan: Absolutely.
[00:10:32] Katie Jensen (Host): And there is something that's super fun, like it's a work perk, right? It's like, oh, I love getting to talk to this person. I'm gonna try and do a quarterly thing with them. Absolutely. Is there anything else that you wanted to shed out?
[00:10:44] Susan Buchanan: Bring yourself to work, have the conversations that you know, there are gonna be days that you don't have a good day. Let your colleagues, let your management know, because this is, the thing is, is that we're real and we don't leave ourself at the door. So be authentic and feel comfortable. It does sometimes feel vulnerable, but share, share what's going on in your life because I think people are much better to help, to support if they know what's going on.
[00:11:12] Susan Buchanan: Again, totally respect people's privacy of, they don't want to share. But I think when people are vulnerable and want to share, it creates trust amongst a, a team amongst you, yourself and your manager, so that they're just aware that you know you're a human being and, some days you might be a150%, other days you might be 40%, but it's the same thing as my coach for fitness always says: your 100% percent might only be 40% that day, but you've shown up. And just be yourself.
[00:11:48] Katie Jensen (Host): That's so smart. I love that. It's like you're giving all that you have. Your cup was only half filled to begin with today, but you poured it all out and maybe tomorrow it's gonna fill up even higher.
[00:11:58] Susan Buchanan: Exactly.
[00:11:50] Katie Jensen (Host): I love it. I also probably expect you feel this way too, as a manager, I feel really privileged when people share information about what they're dealing with. I feel like, wow, this person trusts that I'll be able to take this information and hold it and. Be respectful, be discreet, but also be able to care for them the way that I can in the relationship. Like it's, it's a real trust thing when someone tells you what they've got going on.
[00:12:22] Susan Buchanan: Absolutely. So just, just to clarify, so I'm not in management any longer, I'm a senior policy advisor. But I strongly believe that leadership is not a title, it's a way of being. And but the same thing is, that when you're creating a safe place and a trust, and it doesn't even mean that you're trying to help fix their issue. You're just letting them know that you acknowledge what's going on and that you've created that capability to say, thank you for sharing and I'm here for you.
[00:12:51] Katie Jensen (Host): Can I ask you one more question?
[00:12:54] Susan Buchanan: Sure.
[00:12:55] Katie Jensen (Host): In your work, and you know this is external, internal, what are some of the qualities that make women great leaders?
[00:13:01] Susan Buchanan: Great leaders, empathy. I still remember my first time when I was in management, in my previous job and my daughter was quite sick at the time, I was at home and had to keep putting the phone on pause so that my daughter was crying and I remember it was an ADM had messaged me privately and said, I feel for you. I remember those days; we're here for you. And I think one of the things is, is having empathy makes a huge difference. Letting them know that they're not alone. And also again, I'm gonna say, is sharing vulnerability. Again, not in a way that allows another person to want to undermine it, but I'm a human being too. So, to your point, Katie. Often women are balancing between work and a lot of the caregiver responsibilities. Even if you've got a partner who helps quite a bit, naturally, it does often fall to the woman. So, I think what makes great leaders is people actually sharing and being authentic.
[00:14:07] Katie Jensen (Host): And caregiving takes all forms...
[00:14:10] Veronica Settle: My name is Veronica Settle, and I work for the city of Toronto in Arts Services.
[00:14:15] Katie Jensen (Host): What's it like working in art services in a very artistic city?
[00:14:19] Veronica Settle: It's awesome. We do a lot of initiatives, especially that are located outside of the downtown core, which is great because it's a lot of areas that don't really get seen enough. So right now, cultural hotspot, which is a part of art services, is working in Jane and Finch, and I think that's awesome because everyone seems to have a negative opinion of that area. But there's been so much great work that has come out of it, and it's just been awesome and I'm just lucky to be a part of it.
[00:14:44] Katie Jensen (Host): How long have you worked in this role?
[00:14:47] Veronica Settle: I've worked for the city for around 10, 11 years. I've worked in art services for just a year and a half now. I initially got started with the city through volunteering because we had those 40 hours of community service that we had to get in high school, and I decided to go. Above and beyond and do a heck of a lot more than that. I had just over 2000 hours when I graduated high school, so all my friends were like, you're nuts. But I really enjoyed it. I got to get a sense of a lot of charitable organizations with the city. It was a lot of programming with kids, and I just loved it until a few of the workers there were like, when are you gonna start getting paid for your work?And I was like, I should probably do that. But I was really trying to get a couple scholarships and work hard, and I was just having such a good time in the role that I didn't mind being a volunteer. And uh, yeah.
[00:15:39] Katie Jensen (Host): Where were you volunteering? Like what were you doing?
[00:15:41] Veronica Settle: So, my high school, Father John Redmond, is attached to a community center, Ken Cox Community Center, it was literally connected to my high school, so it was really easy. They just put a little ad in, like the morning announcements and I was like, I love working with kids. Let's, let's go do that. And then I just didn't stop.
[00:15:58] Katie Jensen (Host): Do you volunteer right now too?
[00:16:00] Veronica Settle: Yes.
[00:16:01] Katie Jensen (Host): Can't stop.
[00:16:02] Veronica Settle: I really truly can't. My, in my last portion of working in recreation at the Ken Cox Community Center in the community center, I had a bunch of my participants from the high school who were in my drop-in basketball program who told me that their basketball season wasn't gonna run. And I had watched them from when they were grade nine, little babies and all the way up to grade 12. And there was no teachers or staff that wanted to coach them. And there was a couple behavioral issues, but they never, I expressed that towards me, so I, I had a completely different judgment than a lot of the staff in the school did. And I said, okay, then I'll coach. And so I ended up coaching last year, and then it happened again this year where no one wanted to coach the team or just no one had the time available, whatever it was. And. It's probably one of my favorite experiences I've ever been a part of.
[00:16:51] Katie Jensen (Host): How much did you know about basketball before you became a hoop leader?
[00:16:56] Veronica Settle: I played when I was in high school and elementary school, but I never did outside of school. But I, I was, uh, I was never a star player. I'll be very quite frank, quite frank with that. I was, you know, but I was always considered a leader on the team. And so, I remember in grade 12, the year, uh. We went pretty decently far. I almost didn't make the team, but the coaches took me to the side and said, listen, like we need your leadership. You're not here to score some threes. Like it was very clear to me that I wasn't gonna be like a high point contributor of the team, and I was fine with that. But they told me they, they kept me instead of the other people that tried out because of the leadership role that I had within the people on the team.
[00:17:36] Katie Jensen (Host): Just as valuable.
[00:17:37] Veronica Settle: I totally agree. Honestly, I took that as a big compliment.
[00:17:39] Katie Jensen (Host): Mm-hmm. The season's over, are you gonna do it again next year?
[00:17:44] Veronica Settle: If they say it's not running again, I will do it. I just, high school sports and that team environment, and like having the opportunity to grow as a leader, that was such a huge portion of my life and I can't see kids now not having that opportunity, so, I think it would just totally get my heartstrings and I would do it again in instant.
[00:18:04] Katie Jensen (Host): How does your current job give you room to do stuff outside of your job and be a whole person?
[00:18:11] Veronica Settle: 100% is the leadership in the job that I'm in right now.
[00:18:14] Katie Jensen (Host): Yeah.
[00:18:14] Veronica Settle: They're amazing. And I think they totally know that I'm a community-based person and even when, I don't even know if I should mention this, but I'm going to, so when I initially applied for this job, it was a full-time, permanent position within the city of Toronto, and I had already accepted the coaching position last year. So, I had, kind of the decision to make on the table whether I had to choose or if I was going to ask this job that has accepted me and that I've been dreaming of, if I can take some time at the end, like if I could leave early, a couple days a week to continue on with this coaching position, and I don't know, like obviously it's not a normal thing for when you just get hired on to ask, make requests like that, but I was so in love with these kids because they were so great that I did.
[00:19:09] Veronica Settle: So I emailed the manager that hired me, and I said, “Is there any chance in the world that you'll let me carry on this volunteer position and leave early, but I'll make up the hours? I'll do this, I'll do that. Like, I'll work twice as hard.” Like, you know, I just, it was, and my all, everyone thought I was crazy. My family, my friends, they were like, just take the job. These kids,
[00:19:30] Katie Jensen (Host): Zip it.
[00:19:31] Veronica Settle: Yeah, zip it, accept the win and go on. But I knew that the kids would be put in a different situation. They'd have to find someone else to take my position, if they didn't, the season's gone. So even though I wasn't getting paid for that position, and it was a lot of time, a lot of early mornings, practices started at seven o'clock in the morning and thank God I'm local, so it was only like I got to get up a couple hours before that.
[00:19:51] Katie Jensen (Host): A couple hours before seven is still quite early.
[00:19:54] Veronica Settle: It is quite early. I'm not a morning person either, but I was excited for what I was doing. So it, it was okay for, you know, it's not like waking up to go to a doctor's appointment, you know, like I really wanted to do it regardless. My manager came back and said that that was all right.
[00:20:07] Veronica Settle: So was able to carry on kind of where my heart was and learn this new job all at the same time. And I'm sure that wasn't ideal for them to have someone who is the administrative person having to be in a different place some hours of the day when they may need them, you know, and making up the hours at different times of the day, so I know that wasn't ideal, but they made it work. I'm forever grateful because it was, I was able, it just made me wanna do better for them in the city, because you let me carry on this volunteer position.
[00:20:38] Katie Jensen (Host): Heck yeah. And also, I feel like when you have hours that are outside normal business hours, you're able to do the stuff that would normally just sit in an inbox until the next day. So, if you're peeking into it like a little after everybody else is logged off, you can kind of clear the decks, which is very useful I think.
[00:20:58] Veronica Settle: Totally, I 100% agree. There was times we work with a lot of artists and I'm the one making the payments to them for the city, and so artists usually aren't just replying, between my hours of 8:30 to 4:30. Right. They'll reply when they have time in the evenings, and I was able to get back to them kind of in a prompt manner because. I was online. You know, just the appreciation I had for them, accepting that upon my hiring. Because they could have said, sorry, that doesn't make you a qualified candidate any longer because now you've cut the hours that you're available and we need this to this and it. Yeah, forever grateful for sure.
[00:21:32] Katie Jensen (Host): Coaching these kids. Yes. Are you now, would you say a good player
[00:21:39] Veronica Settle: Ohhhh. That's a tough one. I'm 100% better. Would I say good? You know, I think I have a better understanding. You know what? Yes, let's go with it. I'm feeling confident. Yes, I'm a better player.
[00:21:52] Katie Jensen (Host): Speaking of confidence, there was no one more confident than Cynthia and Gillian who met in line while waiting to chat with me.
[00:21:52] Katie Jensen (Host): Who are you? What do you do? How do you know each other? Where'd you meet?
[00:22:05] Cynthia Watt: We met in line.
[00:22:06] Dr. Gillian Mandich: We were standing in line, only two people, uh, waiting in line to podcast, and we started talking. I said, you know, I'm a happiness researcher. I studied the science of happiness. And, uh, I mostly look at the connection between happiness and health and how do we influence our behaviors in order to live happier and healthier lives? And then, uh. You started laughing and gave me your card.
[00:22:25] Cynthia Watt (laughing): Oh, no. I think part of understanding this connection between happiness and health is something that we all can benefit from. And so, I have the privilege of serving as Vice President for the union called AMAPCEO, and we have about 17,000 members, and so I'm always interested in meeting new people who are focused on things that are of interest to our members and can help them grow. And sometimes public service is difficult and so sometimes we like to offer hope. And as a union we have nine equity caucuses, and we have a women's caucus. So, we actually are very keenly interested in this type of thing. The power of what other women have had to say, both in the audience and those on stage and the different activities they've ran today, it's been really powerful and. I find it recharging, like energizing and recharging, and I'm thinking about what one of the speakers was talking about today and the questions that were rising around what I think of as locus of control. And when you're a woman and you're coming up through an organization, especially in public service, and it's like, well, when do I get to make decisions and when do I get to influence change?
[00:23:29] Cynthia Watt: I have always believed that wherever you sit, you have a locus of control and what you can actually affect change within the sphere that you find yourself, but too many people don't see that. Right. And you know, I came in through the OPS a long time ago, 26 years ago, but I immediately recognized my locus of control, so it didn't matter that I was like a junior staffer because I actually got to influence massive change in ways that others were like, how'd you do that? And I'm like. Wow. I came up with ideas and I pitched it, and they bought the idea. Right. Like if they said no. Okay. But you know, it's like that locus of control and recognizing that which contributes to your happiness 'cause you feel like you're in control. And that's a big part of it, especially I think nowadays and as women we were preconditioned and, uh, I'm looking at both of you, I'm a lot older and in my generation, there's conditioning that has happened on how you're supposed to behave. And that sort of impacts younger women today because that conditioning expectation still exists and it's helping break through that by recognizing locus of control and all of that.
[00:24:33] Dr. Gillian Mandich: Yeah. And I love the event today because there are women of all ages here, a very, very diverse group of women. And so, a lot of storytelling and sharing has been happening that I've seen. And I think it's so inspiring because if you know, you're of the younger generation to hear the stories of women that have gone through things that have had these experiences, you see what they've overcome, and it gives them inspiration and confidence to sort of do that too, because confidence, you're not just born with it, right? You actually have to work it like a muscle, and you have to do things like you said. Mm-hmm. Like. Share your ideas, but that can be really scary, especially as a woman sometimes, especially in a male dominated space. And, and yet women are doing it and we haven't made enough progress yet, but we are trending in the right direction.
[00:25:17] Cynthia Watt: True. Yeah. At least. Well, I have a 21-year-old daughter, and I am so proud of her and I laugh because she, she has bought the program in the sense of, yeah. Fake it till you make it. So if you fake it till you make it, then next thing you know you're not faking it. You're just doing it. Yeah. Right. And she's like, it works. I can't believe it. And I'm like, I'm so glad you listened.
[00:25:38] Dr. Gillian Mandich: Thank you, mom!
[00:25:39] Cynthia Watt: That was the success in and of itself for me.
[00:25:40] Dr. Gillian Mandich: What makes people happy at work? So. The thing about work is that different people come to work for different reasons and from different perspectives. So there are some people that see their work as a means to make money, to do what they love in their time outside of work. So they see it as I go in, I work my job, I get paid, and then the things that I love, the things that bring me happiness, I do outside of that time. There's other people that see it more like a vocation or a calling, and their work is part of what they're passionate about, right? It's that sort of, they may work longer hours or they're super dedicated, or even when they're not at work, they're thinking about things for work. So knowing that different people come into it from different perspectives is really helpful, because when you paint everyone with the same brush, it gets really hard. And so, when you can start to learn about the goals and the why of people, why they're there at that job, it can really open up insight into. How you navigate their career progression into, you know, are they good where they are? Do they want to learn and grow and advance? And so having more of that nuance, in terms of that, I think is a really powerful thing that we tend to just sort of forget and think everyone is working because that makes 'em happy or doesn't right.
[00:26:52] Cynthia Watt: Yeah. Uh, it's interesting, as you were talking about that it made me think about who we represent and our members in the public service and in the other agencies that we have members in. And, uh, a lot of them are there because of vocation that they feel committed to public service and, and they have picked a per, like a certain stream. So for me, I picked higher education 'cause I came outta the college sector as a student leader and that was my jam. And I spent 17 years in colleges and universities, the ministry, doing work, and uh, and I loved it. I didn't care about overtime, you know, most of the time didn't charge it, which is, as an a union leader now, it's quite annoying that our members will work for free because they love the work that they're doing.
[00:27:36] Dr. Gillian Mandich: So, there's this fun term, so. Happiness. When you look across the world culturally, we do see differences in terms of what makes people happy and things like that. But one of the concepts that I absolutely, love comes out of Japan. And not only is it fun to say, it's a really cool concept, so it's called Ikigai. Essentially, it's your reason for living the meaning and the purpose. In your life. And what's really fascinating is that there was a huge study done in Japan with over 50,000 people. And what they did was they looked at people when they retired and they asked them, do you have an Ikigai? And what they saw in terms of mortality, so we're talking about death here, people that had an Ikigai, a reason for living saw significantly less death than people that didn't. And I think that especially in the workforce, if your work is your meaning and your purpose, we see people when they retire, they have this big identity crisis. Whereas other people find meaning and the concepts sometimes can be misrepresented in North America, but meaning and purpose can be things as very simple as, you know, volunteering or spending time with family, doing the art that you love, the create creative expression, all of those things. And you can have many Ikigais. But starting to ask yourself those questions and to learn like what's my meaning, what's my purpose? Because not only does it help with self-awareness and clarity, it can inform behavior change. And what we see from this data is it can affect your lifespan, how long you're living.
[00:28:58] Cynthia Watt: Oh, yeah. Um, I assume you're familiar with the summary research data that Dan Pink did on what are the intrinsic motivators, I always call it, of the white collar worker. Right? Because that's who we represent. And the three being autonomy, mastery, and a sense of purpose. Right. And this is, they've done so many studies, with money being at the center and money fails every single time that, uh, people need to feel a sense of autonomy and independence in the work that they're doing. They need to feel a sense of belonging and purpose, but they also need to be given time and space to master it. And this is why people take up guitar and they never become professional musicians, but they are wicked guitar players, right? It sort of helps explain all that. And, you know, I personally have thought if employers could think through the lens of those three key elements that white collar workers need, there's nothing that their workforce cannot accomplish.
[00:29:54] Dr. Gillian Mandich: Yeah. And autonomy. So, this idea that some things are in our control, yes. And some things are not, and it's not about micromanaging or forcing the things that you cannot control, but is it's about choosing to give more of your focus, more of your attention, more of your resources to the things that you can control. So, autonomy, is more of a predictor of our happiness than how much money we have, how good looking we are, how popular we are, or how good our sex life is. Wow. So, you look at that list and you're like, yeah, I can see how those things affect my happiness. But above all of those is autonomy.
[00:30:24] Cynthia Watt: Yeah. And that it doesn't surprise me because as a union it's, we hear a lot about the lack of autonomy and, and I might argue different governments have varying levels of success in what they actually implement because of how much autonomy they do or do not give to the public servants.
[00:30:40] Dr. Gillian Mandich: Yeah. And I think sometimes when we think of this concept of autonomy, you know. Especially if you're in a job where you have a boss and you can't control all of the things that you do. One of the most iconic studies on this was done by a woman from Harvard, Dr. Ellen Langer, and she went into a retirement home, and it was a four-story retirement home. They used two floors for this particular study. So, one floor was sort of the control floor, so business as usual, you know, nothing changed. On the second floor, they came, and they gave the clients there opportunities for autonomy. But not big things. It was like, do you want a plant in your room? And then they brought some plants, and they said, okay, we'll pick which plant you'd like. Or instead of saying, we're gonna watch this movie on Tuesday, they would say, what movie do you wanna watch on Tuesday? And what they found was that the group that had some autonomy over seemingly small things, they were more engaged, they had better health outcomes, they had slower disease progression, and they live longer. So often, sometimes we don't think about the little things like, what time do you wanna meet? Or you know, what day do you think like when there's sort of those micro moments of autonomy, those really matter too, and they can have a profound impact on people's, happiness and mental health.
[00:31:45] Cynthia Watt: I believe we were supposed to meet Jillian.
[00:31:52] Katie Jensen (Host): Thanks for listening. Applaud is proud to showcase the dedication of those who make decisions for the greater good and strive to leave the world a better place for all Canadians. All personal views expressed by guests and our hosts are their own. Applaud will continue to recognize those in public service, offer a kaleidoscope of perspectives, and operate in good faith to build trust with Applaud members and all public citizens. You can share feedback on this episode by visiting applaudpublicservice.ca.